On onsdag, dec 4, 2002, at 14:06 Europe/Stockholm, Carl Moberg wrote:
> And where is the ROI for Telia? How would you go about to try
> and make money out of flat-rate ADSL connections? Don't forget
> that practically all ISPs in sweden are dumping their connections
> (selling the product with loss).
There is a very big difference between giving out:
1 NAT:ed addresses
2 One real DHCP-based address (so the customer itself have to run NAT)
3 More than one address based on DHCP
4 More than one address
5 - Users use lot's of bandwidth
The problem I have is that many ISP's mix up 5 with 1-4, and only give
1 to users. There is just no way a customer of some ISP's can get 3 or
>> If Telia would have launched their ADSL service with a simpler system
>> wouldn't have the problem with NAT that exists today, since Telia has
>> 80% of the ADSL market
> I think (ok, know) that NAT is optional in the current system and the
> reason that many ISPs use NATs are that they are easy to roll
> out (no IP configuration on the customer facing interfaces),
> and that RIPE don't like public IP-addresses unless they're
> explicitliy needed. Not saying that I like this.
Public IP addresses are explicitly needed for any customer which have
IP-based services which are to be contacted from the Internet, as we
all know. IP-telephony is one of them.
As there are so many services a customer can not run due to having a
NAT between the customer and the Internet, I think the ISP's should
more explicitly tell in information together with the packages whether
a customer can get real IP addresses (in plural) or not, and what it
will cost. The customer must be able to differentiate a real Internet
connection where IP telephones for example can be located and "fast
modem access" which is enough _today_ for 95% of the customers.
A second question is what happens when IPv6 is introduced. One of the
main reasons for IPv6 is that it will allow many IP addresses, and
obsolete NAT. So, what do we do to ensure we will NOT have NAT between
the boxes a customer have and Internet?