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Subject: Floating atmospheric regulators
From: Pay_the_Piper <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Scientific forum on fish and fisheries <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:04:50 -0700
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Are there any oceanographers who have focused on the uppermost ecosystem of the waters of the planet, ie the water surface?
Maybe this is an existing specialization in oceanography.

Are there existing creatures or those which could be developed to float and alter climate in various ways after mass production?

PtP

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pay_the_Piper 
To: [log in to unmask] 
Cc: Future Science ; [log in to unmask] ; Soil Remineralization 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:42 AM
Subject: [Science_Future] Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow! -> The wisdom of the ant



I did read somewhere that the biomass of the ant is way up there among living creatures which really amazed me. And maybe the "wisdom" of this is that we should look more generally at the half dozen or so "kingdoms" of living creatures to consider climatic regulators on or off planet. If trees and cows and ants make a difference and in different ways, what about __________?

Nanotechnology may enable us some time this century to mass produce small creatures which serve particular chemical purposes. They could produce and absorb all sorts of chemicals to suit our needs. Why just "terraform" planets? For example, maybe Planet X could be used as a methane producer if there is a big off-planet need for methane. If cows get out of hand we could use Earth that way and move on .... Mars maybe?

Many microscopic creatures, most undiscovered and not yet named may be found in soil and mineral bodies as soil parent materials. Vancouver region Fraser Valley soil here contains most of the periodic table of elements. Microbes with selective mining ability could revolutionize future mining and milling as well. There are probably "bugs" out there which already mine all the elements in some way and maybe they can be genetically engineered for this purpose as well as climate change.

The surface area of the water is also a huge "skin" and whatever we float on it which alters the atmosphere above will have a large total effect. So maybe we should study creatures which float in great detail for C absorption.

PtP

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eduardo Ferreyra 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!



  Some people say it is a threat to the ozone layer, but I say it is more responsible for acid rains in the jungles, precisely because it is washed out by rains.

  Eduardo

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: DAVE DARDINGER 
    To: [log in to unmask] 
    Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 6:03 PM
    Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!



    Formic acid is soluble in water so I'd think it'd be washed out of the atmosphere.  And it's not particularly volitile since it has a boiling point about the same as water.  What's the danger?

    Dave Dardinger

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Eduardo Ferreyra 
      To: [log in to unmask] 
      Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!



      Al,

      Termite and especially ants are great producers of formic acid, a tremendous threat to the ozone layer. Several trillions of ants all over the world (especially in the Amazon, Africa jungles and Southesat Asia) makes an unbelivable contribution to the "problem". 

      Eduardo

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Albert 
        To: [log in to unmask] 
        Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:29 AM
        Subject: Fwd: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!


        Termite flatulence is said to be a big deal, also. Maybe bigger than 
        the bovine variety.

        - Al Masetti

        Begin forwarded message:

        > From: "Robert Karl Stonjek" <[log in to unmask]>
        > Date: June 18, 2007 4:48:53 AM EDT
        > To: "Climate Change Forum" <[log in to unmask]>
        > Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!
        > Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
        >
        > Eduardo,
        > that may be the case in your country but in Australia and probably the 
        > USA the nation's herd rises and falls with the price of meat.
        >  
        > Electric fences are common for smaller herds largely because they can 
        > easily be shifted around.
        >  
        > Genetic manipulation or selective breeding could produce cattle for 
        > leather if need be - perhaps they bloat up on fat - same hide, faster 
        > growing, far less useable meat.
        >  
        > The Australian cattle herd follows world beef prices (up and down) as 
        > can be seen when the world beef price collapsed in 74-75:-
        >  




------------------------------------------------------------------------






------------------------------------------------------------------------


        > 
        > although with the price crash domestic consumption skyrocketed, but  
        > that could not sustain the herd (drought is a recurrent issue in  
        > Australia as well). [From the Australian Bureau of statistics (ABS)]
        > [log in to unmask]">http:[log in to unmask] 
        > 1301.0Feature%20Article232005? 
        > opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=1301.0&issue=2005&num=&view=
        > 
        > Without doubt the export industry in Australia would collapse if the  
        > price of meat dropped (Australia is the world's biggest beef exporter  
        > contributing 25% of all Beef exports). 
        > 
        > I note in their assessment of the Beef Cattle industry the very  
        > thorough ABS did not mention leather or other by-products. 
        > 
        > Clearly regional conditions play a role - the average Australian herd  
        > is around 300 head with 2% made up of 2,000 head or more.
        > 
        > "The beef cattle industry is one of Australia's major agricultural  
        > industries. It is an extremely diverse industry, ranging from  
        > intensively managed small holdings in the south-east of Australia,  
        > where more fertile soils and plentiful supplies of water allow high  
        > stocking rates, to extensive large scale unfenced cattle stations  
        > where cattle rarely see a human being, except for infrequent musters."  
        > [ABS]
        > 
        > I don't quite see how deer farming fits it - we have deer farms in my  
        > state :)
        > 
        > In sum - I don't see how by-products of meat production could support  
        > current heard levels if the price of meat fell dramatically. The  
        > degree to which national declines will depend on a number of factors  
        > including government subsidies (eg import tariffs, tax breaks for  
        > graziers) and the viability of industries relying on the by-products  
        > of meat production.
        > 
        > Robert
        > 
        > Robert,
        > 
        > Do you really know anything about cattle raising? We have raised  
        > cattle at our ranch for the last 100 years. I think I know all is  
        > there to know about it. So you cannot fool me with your talk. There is  
        > no a single peace of cattle that is not used, and leather is one of  
        > the most precious items.
        > 
        > That's why we don't use barbed wire (they ruin the cow leather with  
        > the wounds and scars) and have replaced them with electric wires that  
        > send a 40.000 volts shock to the cattle touchig it. They soon learn to  
        > stay away from fences. The system work as a car coil that sends pulses  
        > at one by second.
        > 
        > The worst part or "useless" remains from slaughterhouses are converted  
        > into "balanced food" (garbage...) for pets. Pets need real meat for  
        > growing healthy. Only meat gives them the essential aminoacids they  
        > need. Vegetable protein is not good for their health, and dogs and  
        > cats will suffer all kind of problems when growing older, especially  
        > in their bones and kidneys.
        > 
        > I would like to see what kind of cattle grows so fast as to reach the  
        > size needed to make a valuable hide. French cattle Charolais are big  
        > and good leather providers. They commonly weigh about 1000 kg (double  
        > any regular Shorton, Heresford or Aberdeen Angus) and they measure  
        > about 1.80 meters at the shoulder. We also raise deers in special  
        > grounds for their extremely valuable hide and their excellent meat  
        > sold in international markets. Deer leather is the softer you can get  
        > (along with the alpine goat hide, but not many are found these days).
        > 
        > Please see this link about deer raising in Argentina (a page in  
        > English. It is a New Zealand company whose owners are my friends).
        > 
        > http://www.ciervosargentinos.com.ar/aboutus.htm
        > 
        > Eduardo
        > 
        > 
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From:  Robert Karl Stonjek
        >> To: Climate Change Forum
        >> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:56 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!
        >>
        >>
        >> Eduardo,
        >> I don't think every cow's hide is made into leather and every cow's  
        >> bone is made into glue. Locally, non-meat products are made into  
        >> cheap fertiliser called 'blood and bone' or burnt (used to make a  
        >> horrible stench when the wind blew the wrong way). I don't know what  
        >> percentage of cattle and pig's hides are used for leather but I'm  
        >> sure it falls way short of 100%.
        >> 
        >> Collagen is also derived from cattle bones, but that is not the only  
        >> source.
        >> 
        >> I think there is a big difference between the efficient utilisation  
        >> of cattle products and that which would be profitable if the meat was  
        >> not the primary source of income from the breeding of cattle.   
        >> Without the meat, sources of these other products may have to come  
        >> from elsewhere or the prices rise dramatically. And there would be  
        >> specialised breeds to supply the specialised needs - leather from  
        >> much shorter lived cows would take far less methane to produce.
        >> 
        >> Robert
        >> 
        >> Cows bred specifically for bone or skin products need not be anywhere  
        >> near as fat - the best leather comes from young cows
        >>
        >> I am sure it is you who is joking. Please tell us why cattle  
        >> population will decrease. It seem you haven't considered what I said:  
        >> "But cattle is not used only for meat consumption, as many other  
        >> products are used (bones for making glue, casein, etc, leather for  
        >> shoes, clothes, luxury car and furniture upholstery, etc, and as  
        >> nothing is discarded from cattle (nothing!) even if humans stopped  
        >> eating meat cattle population will not be reduced."
        >> 
        >> Meat is valuable subproduct, but it is not the only one. And as  
        >> always, there is that big IF greens always are using as if it could  
        >> be possible. IF people would give up meat. Nonsense! Again,  IF my  
        >> nephew had a trolley he COULD BE a nice tramway. No use in dream  
        >> about impossibles.
        >> 
        >> Eduardo
        >> 
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> From: Robert Karl Stonjek
        >>> To: Climate Change Forum
        >>> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM
        >>> Subject: Re: [climatechangedebate] Holy Cow!
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Eduardo,
        >>> I take it that you are making a joke here. If people stopped  
        >>> demanding beef then the beef population would radically fall, not  
        >>> rise. We do not cull the wild beef population - modern cattle are  
        >>> not natural and can not survive 'in the wild', they must be bred by  
        >>> farmers.
        >>> 
        >>> I'd also like to point out, for those suggesting catalytic  
        >>> converters, that the majority of the methane emitted by cattle comes  
        >>> from the mouth through belching. The gas extraction would have to  
        >>> tap into the stomach. I did see a science news spot on TV about  
        >>> 'green-house friendly' cows - I don't recall the exact details but  
        >>> they did have some apparatus strapped to their backs which collected  
        >>> the methane (somehow). But the process was expensive and highly  
        >>> experimental.
        >>> 
        >>> Robert
        >>> 
        >>> 
        >>> Rui,
        >>> 
        >>> If humans stopped eating meat cattle will increase its population  
        >>> and will produce more methane. But cattle is not used only for meat  
        >>> consumption, as many other products are used (bones for making glue,  
        >>> casein, etc, leather for shoes, clothes, luxury car and  
        >>> furniture upholstery, etc, and as nothing is discarded from cattle  
        >>> (nothing!) even if humans stopped eating meat cattle population will  
        >>> not be reduced.
        >>> 
        >>> But IPCC bureaucrats are recommending switching from meat to "little  
        >>> green tasteless stuff" in an effort of making people unhappy. Giving  
        >>> up those juicy T-bone steaks and tenderloin " la poivre", is for  
        >>> sure a recipe for unhappiness.
        >>> 
        >>> But greens are happy when they see other people unhappy. They manage  
        >>> it through regulations, taxes and bans based on stupid assumptions.
        >>> 
        >>> Eduardo
        >>>
        >>
        >
        > 
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